How (not) to lose your service team members in 90 days

Yolanda Muchnik:
Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Cukro:
Thank you for having me.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. So one of our past guests, Elaine Simpson, recommended you and she said that you're an incredible trainer and speaker and that you really know your stuff when it comes to service teams. And after listening to that, Multifamily Chronicles podcast you were on, I've got to agree.

Mark Cukro:
Okay. Well, I appreciate that. And Elaine is wonderful and it's nice to be able to refer people that you connect with. So I'll have to thank her and I'm glad to be here.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Awesome. So for our listeners who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey, why you founded your company and what you're actively working on today?

Mark Cukro:
Sure. Okay. So I've been in the multifamily industry for almost 30 years now and I was a contractor before that, and I moved from New York City to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I became a technician. And then I moved up in the company, [inaudible 00:02:40] let through the different levels of being a technician to a supervisor, a manager, and then it was a regional position, and then a national role to the Director of Service Teams and Development for Cornerstone and Colonial Properties. And during that time, and I'm a fanatic about learning. So I'm constantly trying to learn and troubleshoot and just be resourceful and find solutions for things. And outside the industry, I'd been a public speaker and a technician at the same time, which may seem like an unusual merging of skill sets.

And so then I started to develop training programs and I'm a very organized person with systems and processes. And so I'd slowly been asked to do more things and take on, do new and larger roles. And actually 18, 19 years ago, I started to get a lot of requests. You should just start your own company. I think you could really benefit a lot of companies and I've always wanted to do this and be on my own. So I took the leap of faith and the people that were close to me, especially my wife was very supportive. And now this is my 18th going on 19th year as a consultant and a speaker in the industry.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow.

Mark Cukro:
And so here I am working on everything related to service, service culture and maintenance training.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow. Sounds like your friends and family had a really good hunch. Huh?

Mark Cukro:
I'm very grateful to be surrounded by good people. Always.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Awesome. So yeah. So this is the Resident Experience Podcast, so I'm sure you could guess one of my first questions. And we like to ask each of our guests, what is their personal definition of resident experience? It's a really broad term as you can imagine. So I'm just curious, what does it mean to you?

Mark Cukro:
It is a broad term and if you look at service as a whole, you have the internal service and external service. And in any relationship, both people, by the time they leave each other's presence should say, you know what? I'm better off for that exchange or that engagement or that dialogue. And so the experience itself has to always have an emotional connection, but it also has to have a process that will guide people through that. So I would say that the experience has to be as proficient and effective and positive as the process itself. And you need both in order to have good service. So I like to boil it down to a phrase that service is an experience and maintenance is a task, and they both need to be done together very well.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. I love how you draw that distinction between what that resident feels and what's happening on the back end. They both definitely have to work together.

Mark Cukro:
Yeah. And it's ... No, it's just a challenging skillset sometimes because as technicians, we can be great at what we do, but if we upset the customer, or the resident, or we just say the wrong thing, or come off the wrong way because we're stressed, we minimize our contribution to making their problems go away.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Great point. So right now I'd say one of the hottest topics across all industries and certainly in multifamily in particular, is employee retention. Even pre pandemic jobs in this industry were pretty stressful, but layering COVID onto that. I'm just hearing people are feeling really drained and tapped out. So what are you seeing for service teams in particular right now? Are they experiencing that same sense of burnout?

Mark Cukro:
The short answer is yes. And then I would like to open that up and dissect it into many small pieces. So for years the industry, all industries, service based that require trades have really not focused on developing talent and attracting talent from outside their own companies. So what most companies did is they went through their social circles of the people that worked for them. And then when those were exhausted, they would go the advertisements. And then when the advertisements were exhausted, they would stall and look for alternate resources. And so in addition to that, and then there's a dip in the population between boomers and X. And of course now the population numbers pick back up.

Years ago, vocational schools started to leave the standard educational experience in high school. And so now that coupled with this shortage in people, and then of course, now we have Baby Boomers aging out, there's just this kind of like perfect storm merging together that's affected our industry. So everyone across the board that I know of is struggling to find people to even respond, let alone skilled people. And then in addition to that, skilled people with good soft skills, communication skills. So that is something across the board that's happening, but I will say, and most people find this difficult to believe. There are some companies right now as we speak that have a waiting list to get in, to work for them. And if a few people can do it, I feel like more people can do it. If we're mentally flexible to change the processes and how we have our businesses set up, I think more people can do much better.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. So I want to dig into that a little bit and hear more about what can be done. What are some things that multifamily operators can immediately be looking at to combat the brain drain and to prevent further attrition?

Mark Cukro:
So I think the first thing we have to do, and I feel very strongly about this. So I maybe shouldn't have used the word, think. What we really need to do is have real conversations with ourselves and say, okay, my business is not really what it seems to be to me because I'm evaluating my business from an owner perspective. I'm not experiencing it from an employee or associate perspective. So my business is not always what I think it is or your business. It's what your employees tell each other when you're not around and what they tell their family members when they go home. And we have to stop with the superficial delivery of things, and have real, good, meaningful, purposeful conversations. What is it like to work for your company? And that's a question that most people have an idea, but they're not in the field so much.

So one of the things that happens with companies, especially once they've been around for a while, especially if they're in the growth phase, is they become disassociated from the field and they forget what it's like to knock on doors and get distracted 15 times a day and not have the tools that you need, or maybe you do when someone's giving you a hard time and you're exhausted from being on call. But what does that experience that the person has, and how do we make that better with the same focus that we have towards our customer? And so I would start there for sure. And really think about it and say, okay, if you were going to restart and remake or create an entire service department from scratch to the best of your ability and what you envisioned, what would that be? And what would it feel like to work for that organization? I would start there.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Got it. And you touched on this a little bit just now in your answer, but I'm just curious. What are some common actions, or maybe even inactions to your point earlier that you've seen operators make that really lead to this amplification of team member turnover, team member burnout?

Mark Cukro:
Sure. So I think culture of course is number one, but you don't just wake up one day and think I'm going to change the culture of my company. You have to change the way that you have your processes set up. And slowly what happens is when you start to have processes and you give resources, because most of the companies will fail in order these three things: leadership, communication, and then resources. And then you'll have organization and allocation of those. So, okay. You have leadership, does everybody know who they are? Are they approachable? Do they actually offer solutions? And do you communicate that thoroughly? And so I think we have to really start there and then get to know the people in the field and see what their day to day obstacles are, because that's really what creates a sense of overwhelm. And I'd be glad to go down a list of things specifically, but the environment is number one. The number one reason people leave companies is the work environment, how they're treated and how they feel they belong to the group.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. I mean, I think that holds true probably in every industry.

Mark Cukro:
Yeah.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Absolutely. I agree with you.

Mark Cukro:
Yeah. I can go down the list a little more.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. Go ahead.

Mark Cukro:
Pay of course is obviously an issue that come comes up all the time. And if you look at an individual trade, plumbing, electrical, HVAC, landscaping, masonry work. If you take their average salaries or hourly wages, whatever they are, are you comparable or higher than those for a service technician? What happens very often is owners will expect someone to be great at everything. And of course, we know that can't be true. Even doctors have specialties. So you're going to be very good at one thing, and then pretty good at many other things, unless you've been around for a long time and you have a high level of mastery. But pay is number one, for sure. But people don't leave because of pay. They leave because of the way they're treated. And I think sometimes it's easy to overlook how someone's treated when you are stressed out. But the thing is the way that people view being respected at work is very different.

So a technician in the field may think, when I say, I want you to respect me, I want you not to micromanage the process. I want you not to ask me every five minutes, did I do something? And what did I get done? I want to know that if I say something really needs to be replaced, it does. And it's okay to check. But the purpose of you checking in is for verification or distrust, and they can tell the difference between the two. But what happens with the sense of overwhelm now is we're short staffed. We went through the pandemic. People were told that they mattered very much. In many cases, they do. And in some cases, the companies kind of worked around the policies to get people to show up anyway. And then they're shorthanded, overworked, overstaffed, we're coming out of the pandemic into the endemic phase. And now we're trending towards 40% short.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow.

Mark Cukro:
A 40% shortage of technicians. And so the quick fix is hurry up and get people. But now we have people that are overwhelmed and understaffed and they need time to recover from that.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Got it.

Mark Cukro:
So I don't know if that answers the question specifically, but ...

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. And again, I mean, I think this probably holds true in every industry. It's about how you're treated, it's about knowing that your employer cares, that your manager cares. And I certainly think that that holds true elsewhere as well. Let's stick into this a little further even. So another angle to consider here, when we're talking about actions and inactions on the part of operators is drilling into high performers, top tier service members. What do you think top tier service members are looking for? What do they want at the end of the day? I'm guessing it's largely what you were just talking about, but do you think there's anything more to it when it comes to top performers?

Mark Cukro:
I do. So there's a few things with achievers in the achievement mindset is number one, they want clear cut directions and a path. And when people ask a lot of questions, it's typically because they want to know exactly what they need to do to get exactly where they want to be. And that can be perceived sometimes as being bothersome, or being annoying, or just being the person that won't stop asking questions. And if the communication is clear, typically they don't do that too much. But if the communication is unclear, then typically they can be perceived that way.

The other thing is with a clear path is, are you getting rid of the problems, including people? So if you don't get rid of the people that drag down an organization, the good people usually will get quiet and leave, and they'll just go find somewhere else. Because very often, there are unintended consequences for someone speaking up, or they get viewed a certain way and achievers, they don't want excuses and they don't want to hear a roundabout way of doing nothing. They want to see plans. They want to see concrete action. They want to see leadership step up. They want to hear communication. They want to hear yes or no. They don't want to hear vague answers on things with directions. And most of the achievers want to be inspected. They want to be evaluated because then they can benchmark themselves and move forward.

There's a saying that I like that I use often. And that is, it's not the associates, the teammates that speak up that scare me. It's the silent ones. And it makes me nervous because when people come to you and go silent, they gave up on you and they just don't even try.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. I actually saw that quote on your LinkedIn.

Mark Cukro:
Oh, okay.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Silent employees scare me. I totally agree. That totally resonates with me. Can you share a little bit more about where that quote came from? What provoked that statement?

Mark Cukro:
Sure. So sometimes I obsessively think of these things and I like to compare things and associate oftentimes to just regular day to day life for all of us, inside and outside of work. But if you've ever been in any relationship, it doesn't matter what kind. Personal, professional, a mixture of both, somewhere on the spectrum of people interacting, if you are known for bringing issues to someone and they're solution oriented and people listen, and at least try, they will probably come to you more. When they come to you and nothing ever happens and they go silent, they've lost all hope that you'll put any effort in. And so they don't waste their time because people are very efficiency and energy minded and they don't invest energy in things that are fruitless. And what happens with a lot of companies is they grow weeds instead of plant seeds. And they fertilize the bad employees and they put all their energy and resources towards them because their problems, or seen that way, and they don't put fertilizer on the people that they need to grow and cultivate. And so those good people leave.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah, yeah, no I love that quote, such a good point. So I'm not sure if you're into movies, but there's this one rom-com from a while ago with Kate Hudson, How to Lose a Guy in 10 days. And that actually kind of inspired the title for this episode. Onboarding in the first 90 days are really critical for any new employee. When you're lucky enough to find good talent in this market in particular, what do you think some key steps are to take in order to set employees up for success?

Mark Cukro:
So the first thing is you can't be too busy to dedicate undivided time. If you walk up to someone that's brand new and you say, "Hey, my name is Mark" or whatever. "Look I'm slammed. I'm so busy. Here's what you can do for now. I'll get with you tomorrow." You've already started off on the wrong foot. When you introduce someone, just look at it this way. You meet someone at a social event and someone completely blows their first impression, it will take a very long time to recover from that, even though you're the most remarkable person that just had a bad day. And it happens. So if you leave that impression, welcome to our company, we've been starving for employees. I'm not going to spend much time with you because I have my own things to worry about. So we'll give you pieces of it and you can figure it out. It's not a very good first impression.

So I would put undivided time, a dedicated person, the first 24 hours sets all of the expectations. And then the first 90 days will set the course, whether they stay on it or leave. And most people leave within the first 90 days. And what has become very real the workplace, and I never would imagine this 15, 20 years ago was ghosting. People come to work, they go on break and they just disappear.

Yolanda Muchnik:
What?

Mark Cukro:
Yes, it is an increasing trend.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Oh my goodness.

Mark Cukro:
Just the disbelief in your face alone. It's like I can't even believe that happens and it happens.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow.

Mark Cukro:
It happens. And I was in Louisiana the other day with a company, a wonderful company by the way, I mean, this is one of the companies that gets it. And the Regional Service Director was telling me they had a groundskeeper. They just said, "Hey, look, we haven't had anyone here for months. Can you please? Here's a bag. Here's what you need. Pick up anything that you find on the ground that doesn't grow. And I'll check that back with you." And the guy came back and he handed the trash pickers and the bag. And he said, "This isn't for me," and left. And at least he was honest. A couple of days later, he got someone to come in and the gentleman just disappeared on the property and they found his things.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow.

Mark Cukro:
And that is an increasing trend. So that's something to look out for. So a dedicated person, undivided attention, they're the most important person for at least the first few days. After that, set a clear path, first week, first 30 days, 60, 90, then reevaluate and see where they are. The onboarding is ... Another part of that is hiring. If hiring takes three weeks, you've lost. Right now, people are so desperate for technicians, there's a waiting list for people, especially with staffing companies. They have waiting lists. If they get a candidate, even if they're totally unskilled, they're gone in a day. And so we have to be a little more flexible with that. The slow cautious hiring process has really got to change a little bit. And oftentimes if it's a big company, that's difficult to do understandably, but it does have an effect.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Got it. Wow. I'm still a little surprised about the ghosting comment. I can't even imagine.

Mark Cukro:
It's real. I know. I still can't wrap my head around it.

Yolanda Muchnik:
So let's take all that we just been talking about, kind of meld it together, thinking about onboarding new employees, thinking about this concept of ensuring employees don't fall silent. What are some mechanisms that you'd use to ensure that your employees continue to be engaged and bought into your culture?

Mark Cukro:
Well, so the first thing I would recommend is to have people involved. If you've ever watched any of the shows on TV, Undercover Boss, Restaurant Impossible, rescue this business, rescue that business. The first thing that happens, and I've really thought about this a lot. And I've been thinking like what phrase could I make? And basically is don't become disassociated from the people that touch your customer, number one. And if they say they need something, get it for them. How could you be a technician with tools that are 10 years old, that barely work? The cost of business is giving. If you want realistic results, you have to give people realistic resources, realistic training, clear cut goals, and realistic timeframes. Otherwise, all of your expectations will propel your failure.

But if you give people the resources they need, you have them assimilate into your company, through the onboarding process, then it's easier. And then you give them the resources they need. But if someone raises a concern, it should be viewed as an opportunity that you are incredibly grateful to get, because someone has the courage enough to speak up. And what they're hoping for is that you make a meaningful change. And the minute you silence people's feedback, or defend it too much, they just go silent. And then they just show up to work and collect a check.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Right. Well even though this is certainly a prevalent trend, there might be some operators out there who are thinking to themselves, I don't really have an obvious problem with this right now. It's not an issue for me. So I'm curious for those, do you have any counterintuitive advice for them? Any aspects of employee retention that you just think should absolutely never be ignored, even if you don't have a problem with it today, in this point time?

Mark Cukro:
Yeah. So, I mean, think about anything that you do. Just because you're not getting complaints, doesn't mean someone doesn't have a recommendation for improvement and most people are quiet. If you go to a restaurant and you go with 10 people and 1 meal is made wrong, everybody comes around, the staff will come and say how is everything, and someone goes, it's fine. If you ever hear, it's fine, it's not fine. And the reason people are hesitant is because number one, they don't want to go through the experience of having this correction because it's a spectacle. And then everyone else has to watch the spectacle and you throw the timing of everything else off. So I would ask people too, maybe not what's wrong us, what do I need to fix?

But what can we do to improve? Or if we could make one small change, what would it be? How could I make your work day better? Tell me about your work day, and what's a simple fix for us to do? And it doesn't mean anything's wrong, but your advice is valuable and I want it. And if you give it to me, we're going to make a change.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah. That's a good point. I always believe that the best change comes when you directly ask for feedback.

Mark Cukro:
But you have to act on the feedback. That's the challenge.

Yolanda Muchnik:
That too.

Mark Cukro:
And so the other thing is vacation, and this is a big issue. Some people are so burnt out and if you read any reports about people and behavior, it says if you have a very stressful day, it takes 12 to 18 hours to overcome that. And if you're in a stressful work environment, day after day after day, and you want to take a vacation, you should not get phone calls on vacation. You shouldn't get emails. You shouldn't have workcation. You should have isolated vacation because rest is part of performance. And if you don't let people rest and recover, they can't perform. And then you have the slow decline in performance, attitude, and behavior and everything else. And the reason that technicians don't want to take vacation is because they don't want to come back to an overwhelming amount of work that they just can't even comprehend when they're gone for a few days. And so it's that double edged sword of, they need it, but they're afraid to take it.

Yolanda Muchnik:
So as we start to wind this chat down, I'm curious, are there maybe one or two things that you think property managers can start doing right now, this month, that will have an immediate, beneficial impact on their service teams?

Mark Cukro:
Sure. Now, do you mean from like hiring or from maintaining who you have?

Yolanda Muchnik:
Anything. Like something that can just be done really easily, low hanging fruit, can be implemented immediately and just have a lasting impact on the teams.

Mark Cukro:
Okay. The first thing is I would get people, the tools they need. Very often you'll see the expectation or, they should just have these things. If your technicians are living paycheck to paycheck like most Americans, they're struggling to get really good tools. And they would love to have really good tools and meters and equipment because good tools make better work and less time. And it's not that much, it's much less than hiring someone. Just go get them all the tools they need, all the things that they could use.

And the other thing is I would sit down and have a conversation with everyone and assure them that they will not have any consequences whatsoever. But I would also think about paying the people fairly and also address on call. On call is a big issue for people. And it's something that we could never get away from, but we can get creative in the way that it's covered. And I think if you want to improve your service, eliminate the 24 hour guarantees. Any kind of time based guarantees, eliminate those immediately, especially when you're short staffed, because you can never live up to your own promises. And most people just want problems to be solved in a day or two. They don't want to be solved under a stopwatch. And I think that'll make a difference. And the other thing is there's a book I recommend for anybody that teaches coaches or anything. And it's The Five Languages of Love. I don't know if you've ever read that book.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Yeah.

Mark Cukro:
Okay. It's an amazing book. There's many I could recommend, but we have to learn what people look for and consider individually what appreciation is. And sometimes we don't do that because we're stressed out. And this is where a manager kind of crosses over into coaching, but you have to, how do I say this? Correct the behavior, address the heart, encourage this heart and soul, and then give them the resources that they need. There are a lot of companies that get it right. And the ones that get it right have managers that understand the EQ part, not just the IQ. And you're dealing with human beings, no matter how objective you think you are, they need a certain level of an emotional engagement. And now it will vary from, I don't really care to I really need to feel like I belong to something, but you have to figure that out for each person. And so that's a little broad, but I would definitely get them the things they need and find out what's important to people.

Yolanda Muchnik:
I love that. I have to say I was not expecting that to come up as a resource for this discussion. But I'm excited to put The Five Languages of Love on our website as a resource after this chat.

Mark Cukro:
There's other ones. But I think that's one that you read, especially as an adult. And if you have kids, it's easy. If you don't have kids, you were one. But think about this. Have you thought to yourself, I've known this person and for years, and they still really don't get what's important to me? I think this could be an insightful resource. And because the thing is like, when you work on your mind and your attitude and your behavior, and you work on your EQ and your IQ, everything around you gets easier and you have to be effective, efficient, and proficient. And none of those three things are the same. And so we have to get good with all of those. And I to this day, like everyone else I know, the people that care usually try much harder than the people that don't. And those are the people I'd like to be surrounded with.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Nicely said. Okay, so one final question for you Mark.

Mark Cukro:
Sure.

Yolanda Muchnik:
What or who are two other guests that you think we should invite to the Resident Experience Podcast? Any recommendations?

Mark Cukro:
Definitely, I would get [Kara Rice 00:31:37] on if you know who she is. And if you don't, I'll give you referrals. [Jen Pakati 00:31:44] is a wonderful person. Paul Rhodes, he does something similar to what I do in the industry, wonderful person, great insights. And I'll give you a list of references, but I want to say this. There are a lot of really good people and a lot of really good companies in this industry. And they usually just keep their head down and they work very hard and don't publicize themselves very much. But the people I mentioned, Elaine Simpson is another one, and there's a few that they just get it done. And I think our industry and the world needs more people like that. They just bring everyone around them up. And I think those would be some good choices.

Yolanda Muchnik:
Wow. Thank you so much. Yes. Love, love, love those intros from you and those recommendations. So Mark, this was a really great discussion. I really enjoyed meeting you, spending half an hour chatting with you, and we'll make sure that our resource resources mentioned in this podcast, like Five Languages of Love and others are accessible on our podcast page. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with me today.

Mark Cukro:
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me on and I'm sure I'll see you somewhere in the industry. Have a wonderful day and thank you everyone.